There is a dispute over the recent war between Shogun and China empires after China lost to Heroes empire. In short, it seems that China players argue that empires are protected for 24 hours after a war. Thus, they say the war was a bug and the lv13 palace and 5% loss should be restored. Shogun players say there is no bug and no 24 hr protection.
Best Shogun Argument:
According to the existing rules written by Alyvia, Shogun is technically correct. According to Lakoo's Empire Rules written by Alyvia, only the initiating side is subject to the rules of the War Declaring Conditions. Rule 5 states that only the attacker must wait 24 hours to declare war again (against the same target or a different target). Thus, Rule 6 explains that the attacker would have to wait 48 hours to attack the same defender (24 hours after declaring war, then the war, and finally the 24 hour "attacker cool-down" before declaring). However, the attacker must wait 48 hours before attacking anyone, not just the same defender. The argument that Shogun could not declare war 5 hours after Heroes's war with China ended is logically flawed. According to the existing rules, the war was completely legal. The defender is not subject to the War Declaring Conditions and thus has no 24 hour protection. The only protection for defending against being attacked if an empire is not in a war is the War Card.
Best China Argument:
The existing written rules do not support the China claim. Also, China knows from its smaller empires that different empires can war the same empire within 24 hours. Everyone in the server has seen it. Thus, China's best argument is to claim that Lakoo intended to make the game fun for everyone. Without getting into the game history, suffice it to say the Arcadia server has come down to China (and allies) versus Shogun (and allies). Currently, the Shogun Alliance has more military power which is why China has used War Cards for the last two years before forgetting one day. China can argue that Lakoo always intended things to be one empire against one empire, not multiple empires against one empire. Using this logic, China has a strong argument that Lakoo should change the rules.
No one will be happy with the end result. If Lakoo restores China war losses, the rest of Arcadia server will be unhappy and many players will quit. If Lakoo, does not restore the war losses, China will be unhappy and China players may quit. According to the rules, the war loss should not be restored. However, pragmatically Lakoo will decide to do whichever causes the fewest unhappy players and lost $.
I recommend keeping the war loss because:
- The existing rules say the war was legal
- Players should not expect that they can complain and get rules changed retroactively
- Players will lose confidence in the game if they feel that Lakoo will break rules to convenience player who spend $ (although it is unknown whether China or Shogun spends more $ as a whole)
The rules should change for the future. I suggest the following:
- A War Card cannot be renewed until after it expires - an emperor would need to log in and put a new card in place. This forces empires to have active emperors and allows empires to be warred if empires are inactive.
- Reduce War Card Functionality - make war cards last 24 hours, not 72 hours. This would encourage emperor activity which encourages player activity.
- Only Soldiers or higher rank can enter war - this was done for World War with great results. The 72 hour transition time between becoming a new citizen and citizen would keep people from empire jumping just to help in wars.
- Add Empire Hitpoints - similar to World War, allow 5 characters to enter war for every level of barracks. Thus, an empire with a level 10 barrack could have 50 entries into the war. An empire with five level 6 barracks would have 150 entries into war. Although the NPCs of the 50 entry empire would be harder to beat, the 150 entry empire could focus on killing the enemy teams and then try to kill the NPCs before the war time expired.
- Reduce Residence Population Capacity - currently, empires hold too many people. Limit 3 people per residence level. Thus, a level 10 residence holds 30 people. Empires will need more residences and fewer skill buildings. Thus, empires will need to be strategic about what buildings to build and force them to make alliances. It will also stop empires from dropping in power and being chased by enemies joining lower power empires just to keep killing the empire. The lower population cap will keep wars more fair because an empire with equal residence numbers will have an equal number of players in the war even if no one cares for that empire. As an added benefit, more people will want to make empires because there will not be as many empires offering skills.
- Increase NPCs to be Killed in War - currently, most wars are over in minutes even high level ones. Wars are all about killing NPCs fast and using low level players to stall for 1 minute before dying. No one likes to wait 1 minutes to kill a level 20 character who is afk while its controller is killing NPCs on his other device.
- Add War Rewards - each player gets 1 War Chest for entering the war (once per war). Higher ranks get more rewards. Citizens get 1, Soldiers 2, Generals 3, and Emperors 5. The War Chest would give an incentive to war and participate in war. Each chest would be similar to a lv55 chest except it may give rare pets, mounts, fashion, or test items. You could allow an empire to have only so many Soldiers like 2 for each barrack level to encourage building and participating so emperors would reward players.
- Add Sportsmanship Reward - If the attacking empire declares and puts a war fee of 25 gc and 1000 silver or less, the defender NPCs will randomly drop War Chests.
Thus, people would war more. China can fight any one existing empire so they would not need to use war cards. If they did, they could be warred more often because the emperor could not stack cards for more than a day at a time. Also, other empires may need a war card because China could war empires and it may not be able to get allies ahead of time. The Hitpoints would keep empires from using multiple devices to log low level characters to stall enemies because as these die, they lose Hitpoints and their attackers could not enter after all the Hitpoints are gone. The rewards would encourage players to war and not charge huge fees.
Dear lakoo gms,
I sincerely hope that u guys stop giving us the same old (I will call it photocopy) answer over and over again. U guys keep claiming that no shielding over china emp but from what I see is totally different. Time and time again we have shown proof and evidence to fight for our statment but our dear lakoo gms just rebuck us with all our hardwork. I wondering what has china emp people done to safe them from all these destroying of buildimg again and again. Ok, fine if let say this time round there is really so call of the war bug (previously wars we had proven that there is no bug but gm still help china emp to restore the losses) then I hope that gm will do some amending of the stupid (yes STUPID) "rules" of stacking renewal of war card. For once just for once can I ask for gm stand on our view.
Personally, I had quitted this game for sometimes ( partly due to all these lame shit of defending for china emp again & again) and just back to it recently cos I thought I saw improvement for Empire online, seem like gm are listening to the players feedback. New fun quest, rewards, arena, fashion and blah blah BUT why no improvement for the area war "rules" Pls dont make us aka the old returning players sick and disappoint of this game again, we need to see the gm are really doing the job (yes, I know lakoo gm are improving by listening to us but pls show us more fairness esp when come to the war affair) if u want our patience and support. Its really sad for me to see more and more valuable old players quitting EO.
Thank you for listening dj :) The issue is not something that is easily fixed by restoring the loss and not taking away the win. China does not care so much whether the attacker win is not taken away - they got they expensive lv13 Palace and 5% resources back so China feels like the fix is a win. The attacker warred to try to hinder its rival China which has been using war cards the last 2 years. They did not really care about the fee as much as wanting China to either pay the fee or lose a building. Thus, the attacker lost by the fix which is why you see so many angry posts.
The real problem lies with War Cards itself. They last 72 hours and can be renewed anytime within that period. Thus, an empire like China can use War Cards continuously for a long time (over two years). Frustration build up and when the empire forgets to use a War Card, enemies attack with very high war fees. The problem Lakoo faces is that it needs to allow empires to fight and lose, but also for them to grow if they are weaker. Otherwise, the game gets boring because there is no conflict. War is why people play Empire Online and not Farmville or Mafia Wars. Empire Online allows for us to lose and that makes the game attractive and real instead of artificial where nobody can lose.
Part of building an empire is actively growing your empire and its players. The current system does not encourage activity because War Cards allow emperors to go inactive and show up every 3 days to renew the cards. Instead, empires should be warred until it falls in power to where it can beat its opponents. However, because people can just jump between empires easily, an empire can just setup alt empires under its control and shift players to war empires along the entire power spectrum.
If you instituted the rule changes I suggested, wars would be more strategic. An empire would have to choose between having more barracks and residences to be stronger in war and having revenue generating skill shops. Currently, most empires have every building so there is no uniqueness between them. If you reduced the population that each residence could hold to 3 characters per level, lengthened the number of NPCs needing to be killed to win a war (current wars end in a matter of minutes), and added the Hitpoint counter above, you would find that wars are more enjoyable. You would see more empires and more activity because empires could specialize in a few buildings for revenue and the rest for war protection and population. Wars would consist of people killing NPCs or trying to kill the opponents teams and kill their Hitpoints so they cannot bring more people inside the war. Thus, you would not see people using annoying low level stallers to try to hinder opponents in war. An empire could drop down in power because the limited population would make it hard for the server to kill off one empire like China. China could drop down a few spots and beat any empire whereas currently players will just move to attack from a different empire if China does that.
The population cap of 3 people per residence level (2 level 10 residences would allow 60 people in the empire) will raise more revenue for empires via taxes and encourage people to form their own empires. Changing the barracks to allow more barracks to let an empire's people enter war more would give an advantage to having multiple barracks. Each barrack level would allow say 5 people into war so having one level 10 barrack would let you have 50 entries into your war before you could not enter like in World Wars. However, you may decide to have three level 5 barracks. While the NPCs will be weaker the number needing to be killed will be longer anyways so the empire will have time to try to use its 75 entries and kill the other empires players so they cannot to enter the war before trying to kill the NPCs.
Limiting empire populations would allow empires to balance their power and revenue. They could have alot of people and enter many into wars but have fewer buildings for skills or they could have more skill buildings and stay at a lower power but raise more silver.
why do u all care so much? its just a game
We've already wasted 2 year here. If war is not going to be made fair. No point carrying on. All the time excuses = bug. 2012 September, bug was promised that it was fixed. And now, bug again? Due to your incompetency in making the game fair, I don't see any reason to support. I don't wish to say anymore. I'll see what your "relevant" department is going to do now. And if nothing is going to be done or accepted by us, u have what we already proposed to u. And u wont see us here again. That's what u wish most probably. With all the toying lies.
Ur management team referred me ti post on this thread. Ive asked about reversing the war card expiry for china empire 3 TIMES because they renew way before the expiry time and ur management team DID NOT COMMENT ABOUT THIS. ARE U EVADING THIS ISSUE?
We have realized our misleading by calling it wrongly as a bug thanks to email from Alleluia. The question you mentioned is caused by our design flaw, which is the reason why we did not reverse.
We will post an official applogy post in forum along with our plans in the future about empire wars system, as we told Alleluia.
Sincere apology again.
Lakoo's gms still sleeping!!! If lakoo gms jus want to shield china empire jus go ahead!! Why do u lakoo need to implement war rules??? Jus name this fucking game family online... Lakoo has made a stupid move all i can say.. Many of ur players has left this game... Becos of ur unfairness.. Disappointed in ur decision... Spending thousands of dollars to ur game i would rather spend on other things now!!!! Lakoo ur decision n updates of ur game simply sucks now!!! Jus take off ur war protection cards rules if not then better change the whole game name it family online!!! No wonder so many players left ur game... Maybe u never realize empire online are now young role players zzzzzz.... Shit game!!!!
Pressed "save comment" by accident cos im fcking pissed.
.... Just because of 1 lame decision u GM made, u restored EVERYTHING the losers lost and only a pkm 5% for the winners.
The winner's victory and satisfaction is to see the loser's empire building dropped because the loser didnt put up the war fee when it could. How is that kinda victory compare to your shit 5%??
Lakoo u set up this game with rules and regulations yet u are the one breaking up all this.Are u trying to break up this game too? U are just making we the CONSUMER working hard for u lol. Spend money n time for nothing unlike other games in app. Worst game so far
I would be an idiot to be expecting your Empire War is going to be a near perfection system. If ur gamr is so f***king good, there wouldnt be so many stupid design flaws.
The victory for the winners doesny come easy. Just because of 1 lame decision u made,
Enough of ur rotten craps shit talks n explainations lakoo!!!!! There was a bug on the previous war against china a year ago u said its bugged... Now u said its a bug again?!?!? Ask yourself then... Wad are u gms of this online game doing????? Taking ur salary jus to past time???? I m gg off from ur game to e frank... Got enough of ur shitty craps explanations!!!!
unfreeze M4NGFU and JS4e
Everytime theres a design flaw in ur fcked up system, all u GM do is to restore losses for the loser and allowed the WINNER to keep the 5%. Seriously do u think we cared about the miserable 5%?!.
To u GMs u think its the win win and fair solution but you are WRONG. We deserved better compensation as the WINNERS isnt it? What kind of fairness u think this is?
Everytime we asked questions about a new system, U GMs always tell us this stupid response, "Pls commmunicate with other players". AFTERWARDS, the LOSERS discovered another design flaw and u are going to restore the LOSERS' 100% and give us the winners 5% of shit again??
Jus name ur game bugged online!!!!
A residence cap of 3 people per building would add status to empire AND allow empires with equal residence and equal barracks to fight as equals. If you dramatically increased the number of NPCs to be killed and added the Hitpoint counter based on total added barrack levels, it would keep both sides from stalling by wasting low level players to stall for 1 minute since the staller would subtract the empire Hitpoints by one each time it entered the war. This would make wars fun again and fair :)
Players would like to know which member of your team was responsible for the latest mistake in the war system. He should be shamed and should be on forums explaining what occurred. Lakoo might be a team but individuals make up a team and they should be held responsible for repeated mistakes.
You have testers and geeks who are suppose to fix problems of releases, when problems occur they should be resolved quickly, but when problems are said to be solved by lakoo and they weren't solved what does that say... Are you a bunch of liars? Or are you saying you're just a bunch of morons who repeatedly made the same mistake?
How the hell do you think that an empire can stack war cards? This again contradicts lakoo philosophy that at the time of reset everything unfinished expires or cannot be continued. Yet you allow one item and one item only to be carried to the following day. What kind of bullshit is that? All you do is make rules and then after the fact make exceptions to benefit china empire.
Lakoo has generally done a good job enforcing the rules that govern game play. However, there has not been evidence of any "program bug." The war seems to be valid based on the existing rules which are consistent within the forum and the game. From talking with players, it seems that the losing empire contacted Lakoo's in-game customer service representatives for help when they have been killed by an enemy. Even if this is not the case, this is the appearance of what has happened and Lakoo needs to take drastic steps to justify its actions to retain the North American market. Loss of confidence in the impartiality of the gamers is the leading cause of loss in players. I would like Lakoo's Empire Online to remain for many years. Please help address this situation Lakoo :)
I don't think most people will still be playing when the fix happens, if we do not at lest hear exactly how Lakoo plans to fix the problem. I wanna know now...
unfreeze M4NGFU and JS4e
Hi all, we have forwarded all feedback from our players on the war bugs to the relevant department, which is as eager as you are to fix the problem ASAP. Please kindly understand such war system adjustment may take time. We will make some adjustment in the near future and more in the longer future for a better war system. Thank you very very much for your patience.
There is not a war bug according to the rules! You should tell us exactly how you plan to fix the war system now even if you do not fix it right away. If you want to reverse restoring China and then promise to fix the system later that would work. If you do not reverse the poor decision to restore China, you need to tell use specific plans on how the war system will be modified now.
It's very sickening to see ur noob explainations each time u made a mistake lakoo gm... For every few comments here u jus buying us down by commenting - hi all sincere apology for such mistakes sorry for the inconveniences caused blah blah blah..... The relevant dept is working on the issue blah blah blah!!!! Jus ask ur relevant dept to give us a acceptable explaination here on how they gg go fix this issues.... Zzzzzzzz
Hi ♦Hisoka♠ and Meredy, we will post the rough ideas of the rebuilt new war system within 2 weeks for your reference. Our processing is based on system records. The relevant department has confirmed there's bug involved. We guarantee we have never given preferential treatment to @中华联盟@. We never return/recover/compensate items/buildings/coins to our players if it's not our problem/bug (why should we?). We sincerely apologize for such misunderstanding.
Hi Alleluia, we sure care about game fairness as well. As we said, we will remake the war system after we launched "Servers War" and, as the announcement in game mentioned, you've had the promise from Kos: the new empire war system will be much simpler and more fair than the current one.Your suggestion, more or less, we believe will be considered as reference by the management for the new system.
Hi Lee and Ming, there's no reason for us to lie to our players. There're bugs reported. We do not announce we fixed it when we actually did not, which makes no sense and can be easily checked out by our players. Please check our exact reply and the exact bug description earlier carefully. For this time, we are not just handling the war card but more parts of the whole system gradually.
Thank you all for your kind feedback, especially this thread created by Alleluia. We are trying to create a better and better game experience for all our players. We believe your efforts with us here are for this same purpose. Sincere apology again for any bad feelings involved.
In my personal ticket to lakoo, I mentioned why was China allowed to stack on war cards whem it wasnt supposed to be part of normal game settings. Why wasnt this reversed?
Lakoo admitted that there was a bug the first time with China and war card usage, why weren't war cards just terminated from the game? Why would Lakoo said the war system was fixed, then only months later have problems occur again.
Did you lie to your players and tell them the war system was fixed when it wasn't? Why wasn't the person who supposedly fixed this bug fired, and why wasn't the customer service representative who posted that the bug was fixed fired? Firing someone for incompetence is a valid reason. If someone said the war system was fixed, their to your company or to your players and it wasn't both those people should be fired and the company should be humiliated and shamed publically for their mistakes. Why haven't the players been notified of the firings of these people? They should be fired. It was their mistake, cut them loose or else have the come on forum and defend their mistakes.
Theres no accountability when you just copy paste bullshit to forums. I understand English isn't your first language but copy and paste answers are not any reasonable solution.
Why can't you individually answer players questions instead of making horrible generalized copy paste answers?
Its only a reasonable solution to do away with the war card system, an empire shouldn't be able to play a war card the day before war.. they should only be able to play a war card during war hours. The server resets at midnight pacific time, so anything played before that time should not be used the following day. Its a lakoo rule that things are not carried to the following day, so why would you make an exception to the rule... maybe cause you're in bed with China empire and you're trying to protect them from being destroyed because China's emperor Jason and lakoo are associates. How bullshit is that?
There are reasons why shogun has more support over china.
1). china was able to attack SGEmpire with the immediate launch of war when SGEmpire had level 0 barrack. no barrack at all. This wasn't logical at all since SGEmpire had no barrack and why can war be called on? Lakoo did nothing at all to this matter. suck it up.
2). Empire War was implemented without early notice which prevented SGEmpire from having a defense for Empire War.
3). At that point of Time, China being the first empire allied many empires and continue to abuse on SGEmpire since they have more people and allies.
4). SGEmpire was then able to get people to support and won a war with barrack level 10 against China level 11 barrack.
5). since then china started hiding behind cards.
6). War was never made fair to all players globally with different time zone. War time was only advantage to a specific time zone of players and asian have to set alarm clocks for war. fighting wars from 12/1am to 12/1pm. Lakoo did nothing to balance the game for all players. Many had quit because of Lakoo's lack of concern for players on this.
7). War cards were simply an item to abuse. War card can be used anytime of the day. and war card stacks before the previous had expired. lakoo refuses to change it. more players left.
8). Since war is only at a certain time frame, then war cards should be limited to that time frame usage to prevent abuse. Lakoo refuses to change it clearly siding someone. Even more players left. disappointment.
9). Many of us already had no faith in your game system. many left and which u can see lakoo posting to get players to call old friends to come back. friends refuse to come back due to the unfairness in system and lack of service. lakoo keep saying will try to improve, but never did to make to game fair.
We shall see how much damage will be done to the players in the game with lakoo's unfair system and siding on 1 side even though rule was broken, adding on, lakoo had never stick to their rules and regulations for the war system and had refunded china which is the third or fourth time already. Lakoo's decision will impact how much players who will continue to support. we have totally no faith in this scamming game organisation anymore. Players have more frustration than gaming experience in this game. Having the needs to constantly complain, report on bugs. and all lakoo gave were basic customer holding replies with no actions done.
You should feel ashamed. According to Young Gweon You, Ph.D. asian culture and traditions have a great focus around shame and guilt. You should feel ashamed of the bullshit you have created by lying to the people who play your game. Many lakoo "GM's" have posted the rules of war, and no where in these rules is there any comment made about another empire cannot war the following day. China's defacto emperor has admitted to not using a war card because they figured that they couldn't be war'd until 48 hours later. When they got war'd the following day the defacto emperor than played their war card after the fact. You said after the first lakoo embarasment that they were bugs and they were fixed, you made several posts admitting the bugs and that youre a bunch of morons and liars who said something was fixed when a few months later you use the same excuse. You can't use that excuse, you've already used it and you already openly said it was fixed. Why do you constantly lie? Isn't that against your culture? Isn't lying and screwing up put shame on your developpers and company?
Youre a bunch of retards, You cowards are just protecting China empire because you have relations to their founder. You constantly side with them over and blame it on bugs and translation problems. How about you hire someone from North America to do your press releases for North American servers. Saying that you meant this but said that, or that you release statement and then declare its false afterards should be an embarassment to you, your company, and your families. You're suppose to but forth the truth and make your statements clear, but instead you make retarded copy paste statements or release statements which you later delcare to me false or not exactly what you meant to say. Are you retarded? Do you need help explaining things in english? Many of your posts make no sense, even your posts in activity log in game look as if a retarded kid wrote them.
Use logic. Use your heads, if war can only be declared during certain times, then a war card can only be played during those times. How the fuck do you explain a war protection card can be used a day prior to a potential war. The game resets at 0:00 game time, all unfinished missions etc are refreshes so what the fuck are you morons doing saying a war card can be carried over. Bunch of hypocrites and China empire supports. Your actions are so transparent, you just make up your own rules and then fucking change them to suit your friends in China empire. That's bullshit.
You just make up rules to suit your protection of china empire. You constantly are supporting an empire because of your association to them, how is this fair to other empires? Miller Creighton defines shame as the awareness of inadequancy or failure to achieve... do you feel ashamed of your inadequancies?? of your lies? maybe of your failure to properly express what you mean in the English language? Maybe you feel ashamed that you lied saying you fixed something when you didn't, because I am aware that Asians cultures feel great shame over these things?
Why have their been no apologies? Why has there been no explanation or change when playing a war protection card during war hours only is the obvious answer. Shame on you for lying to protect china empire, shame on you for bullshit unfair behavior and decisions. How do you refund them four times and each time say you had a bug but don't worry you fixed the bug... then it happens again.
Your ridiculous shameful decisions has caused many players to left your game. The lack of reason in your decision making process and your blind allegiance to china empire have cost you so much $ from those players who have left. Feel shame lakoo for you have betrayed your culture and brought shame to yourselves, your family, and your company.
-Looking forward to you changing the time that a war card can be played, it only makes sense for it to be played during alloted war times. Don't continue to be morons, make sensible solutions to simply problems.
(i) Using or exploiting errors in design, features which have not been documented, and/or “program bugs” to gain access that is otherwise not available, or to obtain a competitive advantage over other players;
(iii) Anything that Lakoo considers contrary to the “essence” of the Game.
Hi all, sincere apology for any inconvenience/misunderstanding caused. The relevant department has confirmed there's bug in current war declaring system, which is the reason why we recovered what they lost and did not deduct what they won. But we are still working on the bug, which we look forward to fixing ASAP. For any updates, please check in game or on this official forum as often as you can. We sincerely thank you all for your feedback and suggestion. Your patience and support are highly appreciated.